BITCH, CUNT, WHORE, PUSSY, SLUT, COCKSUCKER...Do these words offend?

[yoohooleslie]

BITCH, SLUT, WHORE, CUNT, PUSSY, PUSSY-WHIPPED, COCK-SUCKER, MUFF, TART, LESBO, LESBIAN, etc.


(Note...Lesbian has special status because it describes sexual orientation...but I am referring its use as slang here).

I need to make clear here that although the discussions about the language used in the Barbershop gave birth to this topic, it is not the main focus of the OP. This is not about clearing the air. This issue is much more far-reaching, and I'd really like to focus on that. Sorry if the original wording was misleading. Leslie.

This post arose from a debate in Skype that came up around gender-based, sexually charged language being used in the Barbershop and the division on what some people find offensive, but others do not. So, I decided to explore the whole issue.

First off....Is anyone feeling uncomfortable about the title of this piece? Because it seems to me that we like to say these words are harmless....but are they really?

Do you find the use of these terms to describe women offensive or sexually derogatory? Are they offensive when used in anger, or in 'affection'? Are they offensive when a stranger, an acquaintance, intimate partner or friend uses them? What about the gender of the person saying them? Do you feel indifferent about it? Can the essence of gender-based, sexually derogatory slang actually be affectionate?

Why is the slang we use primarily against women sexually submissive (as it pertains to the sex act, to sexuality and to gender roles), sometimes violent, and/or humiliating in nature? Why do we make fun of women on their periods? What is funny about calling a woman a “bleeding bitch” to suggest crazy behaviour? Why do we use sexual slurs about women to insult men? Is it a worse insult? Why do we use it to insult gays and lesbians and transsexuals?

Do you think our society sexually objectifies women? Do we live in a rape culture as the feminists say? (ie..the sexual objectification of women, and the portrayal of female sexuality and gender roles as laughable sets up the exploitation of women.)

I personally am unnerved by how commonplace and acceptable this kind of slang is...because I think it demeans women and encourages sexual objectification and the demonization of my sex. If you were feeling uncomfortable when you saw the title of this piece...maybe deep down inside, you do, too. Think about it. I see the impact that has on young girls and women...and men and boys...and it’s not always harmless, IMO. The fact that women would use terms that mock their own gender or sexuality is just sad to me. How can we...meaning women...teach men to respect us if we don’t respect ourselves?

(Note...I am quite curious to see if staff will let my title stand as is it or not.)

EDIT: To streamline the OP a bit, I think we should keep the primary focus on if gender-based, sexually derogatory terms are offensive or not...but it does makes sense that some reference to how women (and men) are perceived in both mainstream culture, and subcultures arising from it might come up because the topics are so intertwined. Let's just keep the references to a minimum with the main focus on language. Does this work?

[jubri]

I have to think about what to write some more, just wanted to say that I think it's a valid question for debate

[Mak]

I am sooooooo happy someone FINALLY made this thread.. I've been wanting to for ages, but it wouldn't sound right coming from me... soooooo here we go.


1- The PROBLEM in my opinion lies with how people CHOOSE to perceive things. People who take offense usually get caught up in what the words mean TO THEM, rather than to actually focus on what the source really INTENDS to say by using those words. They don't care about CONTEXT, all they want to do is complain and be hurt.

Once upon a time there was a guy who referred to a certain object as "Cunty", around the same time there was a female who was offended by the choice of words. How oh how could the word cunt be used oh so freely? What a crime against the female populus..Consequently, the only thing unwillingly swirling around this guys head was "damn, is this bitch crazy or something?"... For the record, this guy respects and loves that female, hence unwillingly.

See what I did there?... sometimes people just need to RELAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAX. Maybe even take a reality check and grasp that language has evolved. Understand that genders use language in a very different manner. If you're a fly on the wall in a congregation of men, do not expect the conversations to be free of those words.. But it doesn't mean the men are DISRESPECTING women, it's just how they communicate with each other.

2- Please don't shoot me for this, but I think the reason so many females are quick to take offense is based on insecurities they struggle with personally. This doesn't mean I'm being condescending towards women, everybody has insecurities, a lot of men are insecure about their penis for example.. Gender based insecurities DO exist, they are a fact of nature, the only way to overcome them is by reflecting upon what it is that makes you feel insecure.

3- You know you're only picking a fight when you claim to be offended by something someone said when YOU KNOW THAT THE PERSON NEVER INTENDED TO DISRESPECT YOU OR OFFEND YOU OR HURT YOU OR SCHOOL YOU or w/e.. When you know the person on a level that makes you sure he/she'd never want to hurt you.

4- Sometimes people just want to pick a fight.

5- A man takes offense in being compared to a female. A Female takes offense in being compared to a man. It's natural.

Why the word Cunt evolved to become something one can use in a negative way towards someone/something is beyond me. I think a cunt is beautiful and sexy. "Slut" indicates a lack of integrity and self-control. Cocksucker is offensive because: 1- it's a submissive role, 2- it involves putting someone's urinary equipment in your mouth, 3- It attacks your sexual orientation if you're a man.. I don't think I need to explain Whore..

oh, also, there are also some words that are based on male related stuff: dick, prick, motherfucker, [even pussy-licker in norwegian], (and probably more that I can't think of right now)

As for your question regarding why females are getting the shit end of the stick here, well, the fact is that females are the physically weak gender, that alone is enough ammunition to create words that are derogatory. In the end, it all boils down to physical strength. We men would've been in the same shoes if we were the physically weak gender. We have more freedom than you since we don't have to carry babies for 9 months, and we don't have to breastfeed.. The primitive mind would easily develop the notion that being a female is a burden, while being a male is a blessing. And that's that. (I'm not saying it's right, I'm just explaining why it is like this)

hmmm.. I think that's enough for now..

oh and, I females

EDIT:: I think the title is perfect btw

[Candee]

I have a couple of trains of thought on slang words - well any words for that matter. We give them the power by being offended or hurt or whatever emotion we attach to them. Slang changes through the years and even through regions of the world and among countries and culture.

That being said I voted that it "depends on the context" although I would say for me it depends more on intent. I've said everyone of the offensive words in the title of the poll - the context of them was quite clear. With a lot of those words in the English language as I would use them the words surrounding the slang don't change their definition. The intent of the deliverer is what gives me my emotional response.

I try to look at the context, the definition, the intonation and most importantly the person that is using them. There's probably a few other things that go into my thoughts but as this whole process typically occurs quickly it's hard to list them all.

If I find myself offended I have several options on how to proceed but none of them include blaming the word. The only thing I can control is how I respond. 9 times out of 10 though in most situations I chose not to be offended as it is quite pointless and wastes time and energy. I have very little energy especially lately lol.

Just as a caveat and to add to the discussion - I do have a 4 year old and we use slang words that are considered curses. In the instances he has repeated them we tell him that those are grown up words and that we should not hear from him. We want him to be what society considers polite and at his age he definitely doesn't know about words and the power that can be attributed to him. He also is very likely to hear them whether he hears them from us or others. Open discourse about it is the way we chose to broach it.


EDIT - also after rereading the OP I want to add that there are PLENTY of words that are slang that are not woman centered and can cross both genders as well as racist. Maybe the reason ones centered around women pop up so much IS because women have such a response to them. It's not right but like mentioned above people give the words meaning and power.

[yoohooleslie]

candee...I hear what you're saying about intent...and this makes sense to me to a certain extent. To me...intent is just half the equation, though. There also is the perception of the intent and how it is experienced by the target....which might be completely different. I guess when you are dealing with text, there is a lot of room for misinterpretation.

I still wonder why so much of the commonly used slang is...at its root...sexually derogatory against women. Mak suggested it is because women are the weaker sex and therefore having to take what's dished out...if I've got it right. I don't agree with that in totally, Mak...but again...there is some historic truth in that.

[Phara]

hmm, what an interesting topic. i hope i get a chance to contribute something useful, but i will say that it tends to be quite contextual for me. however, the constant use of those words in a convo tends to fall jarringly on my ears.

edit:
the title is fine, the topic is appropriate... but do decide if you want to focus more on the language issue or the woman side of it... i know they aren't mutually exclusive, but the topic will get jumbled if its not clarified.

[Mak]

Mak suggested it is because women are the weaker sex and therefore having to take what's dished out...if I've got it right.

You've got it very wrong.. I don't know where I said that. Can you please be more specific and show me what part of my post you perceived as "THEY HAVE TO TAKE what's dished out because they are the weaker sex"..? I'm not being an asshole, I just want to know if there is anything in my post that propogates that specific notion. Because if there is I obviously need to edit it or clarify it.

[yoohooleslie]

You've got it very wrong.. I don't know where I said that. Can you please be more specific and show me what part of my post you perceived as "THEY HAVE TO TAKE what's dished out because they are the weaker sex"..? I'm not being an asshole, I just want to know if there is anything in my post that propogates that specific notion. Because if there is I obviously need to edit it or clarify it.

I was referring to this, MAK.

As for your question regarding why females are getting the shit end of the stick here, well, the fact is that females are the physically weak gender, that alone is enough ammunition to create words that are derogatory. In the end, it all boils down to physical strength. We men would've been in the same shoes if we were the physically weak gender. We have more freedom than you since we don't have to carry babies for 9 months, and we don't have to breastfeed.. The primitive mind would easily develop the notion that being a female is a burden, while being a male is a blessing. And that's that. (I'm not saying it's right, I'm just explaining why it is like this)

[Marisanna]

It is good to address the "white elephant in the room."

Context in how it is stated makes a world of difference in how the words are taken. Typed words are much easier to misconstrue because we cannot see body language or hear the intonation of the other person's voice to really understand their true intent. So many women here are "taught" to respond to any word that has the potential for offense. In the US, the sexual harassment laws are judged based upon the "perception" of the incident not the intent. I do not know how the laws are in other countries but I think we need to consider that someone's upbringing and culture also should be taken into account in the words used by some. Language barriers are one more thing to add into the whole mix.

As Candee stated...words have power only when the people give them the power by reacting to them. No one makes us angry. We make the choice to react with anger or whatever other response we end up having. I can't control someone else's mouth (besides mine and Gabe's...well at least I try to control his mouth )

[kyphe]

No Mak is not suggesting that women have to accept whatever men dish out what he is suggesting is that the reason the terms are in fact derogatory is in relation to their reference to women and as such physical weakness, Its the idea that these terms and others in history are in fact used predominantly against men in a pejorative way to link them with femininity in an insulting way.

but tbh the terms are actually a counterpoint to the high regard women were held and the high expectations of their behavior relative to men.

you see there can be no worse disgrace than an angel committing sin, its like treason, and women who commit what was considered immorality had a whole bunch of words which expressed the social outrage and disgust created to regale them, these words were most lavishly used by other women to describe the offender

A bitch is a woman who mates with men like a dog in heat, and cunt is short for dirty unpleasant vagina normally in reference to someone to be avoided, Cunt used to be a common non pejorative term from the german kunton which means vagina but was replaced by it as Latin words were considered more respectable thus the old germanic/anglo-saxon rooted words like piss and crap were relegated to less favorable vernacular, whore is a woman who either trades her body or again like slut has multiple partners, pussy is not a female slur, pussy is a term for a vagina which is only an insult when used to indicate cowardice it has no sexual pejorative connotations, normally it is used against a man, as in a man without balls.

Similarly Cocksucker is not a particularly female slur its most commonly used to indicate homosexuality.


Ah I just did a search on cunt and found this wiki

"Cunt" can also be used informally as a derogatory epithet in referring to a person of either sex, but this usage is relatively recent, dating back only as far as the late nineteenth century.[3] Reflecting different national usages, the Compact Oxford English Dictionary defines "cunt" as "an unpleasant or stupid person", whereas Merriam-Webster defines the term as "a disparaging term for a woman" and "a woman regarded as a sexual object"; the Macquarie Dictionary of Australian English defines it as "a despicable man", however when used with a positive qualifier (good, funny, clever, etc.) in countries such as Britain, New Zealand and Australia, it conveys a positive sense of the object or person referred to

so like i said we in the UK dont use Cunt to refer to women

And yes my friends often call me a clever cunt

[M(B41n3]

I think the context is a huge part of it, but I feel the need to clarify this.

When I hang with my buddies, it's quite common that we tease each other, and even call each other names that would be offensive to others. Being called idiot or asshole is quite different if a friend I know for 20+ years says to me with a laughing face or if some random stranger calls me that on the street.

That said, I very rarely use these words from the OP. I once called my best friend a slut when she told me about a one night stand with a stranger (and I know her for more than 10 years and we've been through some heavy shit). I said it ironically and with a wink and she fired right back. It was a laughing matter. I would never call women these words for no reason. There may be times when I'm angry and then resort to one of them, but that happens very rarely, I can't think of anytime I actually did. The thing is this: I don't have to proof what an awesome man I am by refering to women as bitches and such. I think this is tasteless. Especially when the so critically important context is hard to get. As Mari said, in written form you can't always tell.
There might be people who are offended and I certainly have other means off adressing, so why should I write something that could hurt people I don't know or - in case of the forums - I like ?
I don't want to play mister morality here, but I can happily live without having these words in my vocabulary and will be doing fine without using them.

[leftie]

hmmm this is a difficult question/issue. To answer the OP, when I read the title I was shocked/offended as would be a normal reaction I think, at least initially.

Here's the thing. Within context, if the word offends someone in the vicinity, then its offensive, as that person is personally hurt by the word (rightly or wrongly).

I know I get offended when a straight person uses the word fag or cock-sucker. Why? Because its offensive and even in a situation where no harm is meant to be done, I still think the very fact that the word was used in a negative context (which it always is), is offensive as it is implying that it is bad, or wrong to be gay. If someone says "oh you're such a fag" to their friend, it has a negative connotation to it implying that being a "fag" is a negative thing.

Now, between gays, I think its alright because its a word used to describe us, and in that context it would be seen as us taking the word and turning it into a friendly, positive, even loving thing (re-possessing it).

[Lena]

This is a great topic....err... topics. lol Yea, I agree the OP needs to be modified to clarify if we're to focus discussion on language or the woman side of things, as Phara put it.

Leftie, I like your view on using the words fag and cock-sucker. I really like the idea of "taking it back", and turning a derogatory term into an endearment... im cool with that. actually, it's kinda like what we've done with word nigga lol

[leftie]

This is a great topic....err... topics. lol Yea, I agree the OP needs to be modified to clarify if we're to focus discussion on language or the woman side of things, as Phara put it.

Leftie, I like your view on using the words fag and cock-sucker. I really like the idea of "taking it back", and turning a derogatory term into an endearment... im cool with that. actually, it's kinda like what we've done with word nigga lol

Thats exactly what I had in mind, as I had heard about it and thought it an interesting concept.

[godeshus]

I don't see the issue with any of those words. I call men those things probably more often than I would call women those things. Except pussy-whipped, which obviously I would never use on a woman, unless she were lesbian I guess. And I don't know how that's derogetory towards women. Much more derogetory towards men, saying that there wife or gf controls the sex, and makes them do whatever they want by promising sex as a reward and witholding sex as punishment.

And if any of those words truly are insulting to some people, it`s probably best if they are used so frequently. Such frequent use of any word only serves to dilute its impact. Bitch used to be a lot more derogetory than it is today. But now it gets used all the time in so many different contexts that even if someone does use that word in a truly offensive manner than it's kind of like 'really? bitch? THAT'S the best insult you can come up with?'

Anyway, I think its a good thing that these words are being so diluted, because that's what takes the hate out of them.

-godeshus

[yoohooleslie]

It is good to address the "white elephant in the room."

Context in how it is stated makes a world of difference in how the words are taken. Typed words are much easier to misconstrue because we cannot see body language or hear the intonation of the other person's voice to really understand their true intent. So many women here are "taught" to respond to any word that has the potential for offense. In the US, the sexual harassment laws are judged based upon the "perception" of the incident not the intent. I do not know how the laws are in other countries but I think we need to consider that someone's upbringing and culture also should be taken into account in the words used by some. Language barriers are one more thing to add into the whole mix.

As Candee stated...words have power only when the people give them the power by reacting to them. No one makes us angry. We make the choice to react with anger or whatever other response we end up having. I can't control someone else's mouth (besides mine and Gabe's...well at least I try to control his mouth )

Mari: I’m glad you think that words only have the power we give them...but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. When society at large believes words to have power, they do in fact have that power. Fear and prejudice and the mob mentality have resulted in some horrible injustice, and it all started with a word. You wouldn’t have wanted to be called a witch during the Salem witch trials. Women accused of “consorting” with the devil were burned at the stake. No such thing as a fair trial. You would not want to have been called a terrorist on an airplane, especially if you were of Arab decent. You could be locked up without any rights indefinitely in the USA. You would not want to be called a whore in Iran or Iraq. You could have acid poured on you or be stoned to death without a fair trial. I’ve seen reputations ruined by unfair words. We all have.

[bigsexywzp]

It's all about context. Two close friends may use these terms as words of endearment. They mean no ill will towards their friend. I've had female friends use several words this way towards one another. Just kidding around, meaning no offense or hurt towards the other. Even the dreaded "C" word (it was an inside joke from a drunken incident that they then turned into a term of friendship). I've also seen the other end of the spectrum, where the whole purpose of these words was to cause anger or hurt in the other person.

It's all about how much power we let words and other people have over us. If we don't care about what another person's opinion of us is, or we know that their opinion of us is much higher than the thoughts these words evoke, they can call us almost any word in the book and we won't get angry. If another person's thoughts are important to us, or we have no idea what that other person thinks of us but we want them to think more highly of us, even the most trivial negative term can offend us or anger us.

[yoohooleslie]

I don't see the issue with any of those words. I call men those things probably more often than I would call women those things. Except pussy-whipped, which obviously I would never use on a woman, unless she were lesbian I guess. And I don't know how that's derogetory towards women. Much more derogetory towards men, saying that there wife or gf controls the sex, and makes them do whatever they want by promising sex as a reward and witholding sex as punishment.

And if any of those words truly are insulting to some people, it`s probably best if they are used so frequently. Such frequent use of any word only serves to dilute its impact. Bitch used to be a lot more derogetory than it is today. But now it gets used all the time in so many different contexts that even if someone does use that word in a truly offensive manner than it's kind of like 'really? bitch? THAT'S the best insult you can come up with?'

Anyway, I think its a good thing that these words are being so diluted, because that's what takes the hate out of them.

-godeshus

Does it take the hate out of them, though?

Godeshus...I need a little clarification. Are you saying that women, men and children who find being called a “bitch” humiliating or derogatory or shaming...should in effect be innundated with the word until they change their mind about it being offensive to them? O_O That sounds a bit like brainwashing, doesn't it? Maybe I'm missing your point.



Also, don’t we all have the right to our own belief systems? Should a nun be deserving of the title bitch? What about a five year old Muslim girl? What about an 11 year old gay boy just coming to terms with his sexuality? What about a 90 year old man with Alzheimer’s in a nursing home? Do they really need to kowtow to a culture that is alien to them? Do they have to change so that mainstream society can feel better about using sexually charged expletives more casually?

PS...I hope that doesn't come across as accusatory. I'm looking for your insights, my friend. Peace.

[yoohooleslie]

hmmm this is a difficult question/issue. To answer the OP, when I read the title I was shocked/offended as would be a normal reaction I think, at least initially.

Here's the thing. Within context, if the word offends someone in the vicinity, then its offensive, as that person is personally hurt by the word (rightly or wrongly).

I know I get offended when a straight person uses the word fag or cock-sucker. Why? Because its offensive and even in a situation where no harm is meant to be done, I still think the very fact that the word was used in a negative context (which it always is), is offensive as it is implying that it is bad, or wrong to be gay. If someone says "oh you're such a fag" to their friend, it has a negative connotation to it implying that being a "fag" is a negative thing.

Now, between gays, I think its alright because its a word used to describe us, and in that context it would be seen as us taking the word and turning it into a friendly, positive, even loving thing (re-possessing it).

Thanks for your insight, leftie. I'm rather surprised more people aren't saying they had gut reactions to the title initially...even if they changed their mind when they realized those words weren't being said in anger. I wonder how many people assumed they were insulting before the OP was read? I bet more than a few. To me this is testament to the power of words...to the subliminal messages they carry. I could be wrong. (shrug) Don't think I am, though.

Also...I tend to agree with context playing an issue here...but for me it is a very narrow parameter because I believe that society at large just isn't as desensitized to some of the more sexually charged words like cunt (not in the UK, kyphe...I know. hehe), cocksucker, pussy-whipped, whore, slut, etc.

I should say that I have called the odd woman a bitch in play....but it never felt completely right because I know what the connotation is and I don't want to be associated with that at all. I don't want to even intimate it, or risk being misunderstood because I am proud of my sex and want to say only life affirming and gender empowering things. Well, in a perfect world. I have been known to call people tarts and trollops. I guess that's not any different than whore or slut. It's just a prettier word. I guess I need to reconsider even that.

[yoohooleslie]

so like i said we in the UK dont use Cunt to refer to women

And yes my friends often call me a clever cunt

First off...I will never call you a cunt, kyphe, even at Piccadilly Circus. And at this point, I'm not sure I'll call you clever either. Oh, I'm joking. We all know you're the big giant head. I concede the point that sometimes words can change their meaning in some contexts...but this is rare. And I bet cunt is still used as a derogatory slur against women in the UK also...which means that it still carries that association. So...it is a Catch-22.

Also..your point about sexually derogatory slurs against women being used as pejorative slurs against men is a good reason to not use them, as far as I'm concerned. Not only does it insult men, but it is a back-handed insult about women...intimating that we are the weaker sex. We are not the weaker sex. If you doubt this, try arm wrestling with nyx. And certainly we are not weaker morally or intellectually either. I know you don't think this. I'm sure most of the men and women on the thread don't believe it either. So why say something that represents it? Doesn't that reinforce a subliminal negative message?

[godeshus]

Does it take the hate out of them, though?

Godeshus...I need a little clarification. Are you saying that women, men and children who find being called a “bitch” humiliating or derogatory or shaming...should in effect be innundated with the word until they change their mind about it being offensive to them? O_O That sounds a bit like brainwashing, doesn't it? Maybe I'm missing your point.



Also, don’t we all have the right to our own belief systems? Should a nun be deserving of the title bitch? What about a five year old Muslim girl? What about an 11 year old gay boy just coming to terms with his sexuality? What about a 90 year old man with Alzheimer’s in a nursing home? Do they really need to kowtow to a culture that is alien to them? Do they have to change so that mainstream society can feel better about using sexually charged expletives more casually?

PS...I hope that doesn't come across as accusatory. I'm looking for your insights, my friend. Peace.

I'm not talking about shock therapy, I'm talking about the cultural evolution of linguistics. The same can be seen in television and film. What was unacceptable to show on public television even as recently as the 80's is common place today. Sex and violence permeate the entertainment industry, The more raw and gruesome the better. Television has evolved as people have become desensitized to certain things.

Would you say you've been brainwashed? Or would you simply say that television has changed. I consider it the same with these words. No one's being brainwashed. It's just the language that's changing.

IMO, when people feel insulted just by hearing these words they are being selfish. Not in the derogetory sense, but in the literal sense. They need to victimize themselves in order to be a part of something that doesn't apply to them at all.

Because if you think about it, there really isn't much point in tickling someone who isn't ticklish. If my goal is to insult you by saying derogetory things to you, but my words have no impact at all, I'm not really accomplishing my goal, am I?

But regardless of that, if I'm flinging derogetory insults at you then I'm the problem.

I just find that context makes the whole point of getting insulted by these words moot. From one side if I'm calling my guy friend a bitch then its amicable and there isn't any sting in the word, so who cares if it's being used? From another side if I'm calling a girl a bitch with the intent of being derogetory, then sensoring myself for the sake of her feelings is counter-productive.

That being said, I think it's disresepectful to refer to women in general as bitches or ho's or whores, cunts or whatever other slang term. But as far as I'm concerned in this situation I personally just lose some respect for those who speak that way. So in this case I don't think those words affect women in any way, I think they have much more of an effect on the orator.

-godeshus

[godeshus]

First off...I will never call you a cunt, kyphe, even at Piccadilly Circus. And at this point, I'm not sure I'll call you clever either. Oh, I'm joking. We all know you're the big giant head. I concede the point that sometimes words can change their meaning in some contexts...but this is rare. And I bet cunt is still used as a derogatory slur against women in the UK also...which means that it still carries that association. So...it is a Catch-22.

Also..your point about sexually derogatory slurs against women being used as pejorative slurs against men is a good reason to not use them, as far as I'm concerned. Not only does it insult men, but it is a back-handed insult about women...intimating that we are the weaker sex. We are not the weaker sex. If you doubt this, try arm wrestling with nyx. And certainly we are not weaker morally or intellectually either. I know you don't think this. I'm sure most of the men and women on the thread don't believe it either. So why say something that represents it? Doesn't that reinforce a subliminal negative message?

In general men are physically stronger than women. This is a fact of life. Blurring the edge changes nothing here. Wishing it otherwise changes nothing. It's all in the chemistry.

Testosterone:

In men, testosterone plays a key role in the development of male reproductive tissues such as the testis and prostate as well as promoting secondary sexual characteristics such as increased muscle, bone mass and hair growth.[3] In addition, testosterone is essential for health and well-being[4] as well as the prevention of osteoporosis.[5]

On average, an adult human male body produces about ten times more testosterone than an adult human female body, but females are more sensitive to the hormone.[6]

That doesn't mean women are the weaker sex, it just means they're weaker physically.

-godeshus

[Mak]

Godeshus Wrote:

In general men are physically stronger than women. This is a fact of life. Blurring the edge changes nothing here. Wishing it otherwise changes nothing. It's all in the chemistry.

Well, they can allways close their eyes and wish upon a star .

Hahaha, seriously though, I think it's [brace yourselves, here's a new word for you all] retarded [yikes] to be offended or annoyed by the fact that females are physically weaker than men. BOTH genders have their weak sides, and both have their strong sides. People need to acknowledge this and see things for what they really are.

And honestly, the more I hear a woman complain about gender issues, the weaker she becomes in my opinion. Imo, a truly strong female is one who laughs in the face of shit like this. There is nothing in this world that is stronger than a female who feels like she doesn't have anything to prove to anyone. [there is something as too strong though, haha]

But really, you surprise me with how little signifigance you give to context yoohoo, I mean, just imagine coming onto the boards and seeing a thread with this title, then imagine that the author of the thread was me, in CnD of all places.. I know of a couple of people who would INSTANTLY go bat-shit insane.. but, when the author is you, a woman, suddenly it's not that offensive.. That mylady is called CONTEXT. So EVEN when those people are disregarding in what context I am presenting the thread (which should be the more significant context), the context of who wrote it, where it was written, and when it was written (the recent events at the barbershop) would still play a significant role in those people's reactions...

Context, leslie, is EVERYTHING. It's when people forget this that problems arise. (also, the person's intent is a very important part of the context, to remove intent from the equation should be a crime imo).. like oh yeaah, I know you didn't intend to step on my toes, but I'm gonna HAVE TO step on yours as well just to be fair, sorry, sux to be u, suckaa..
see?

[jubri]

I'm not talking about shock therapy, I'm talking about the cultural evolution of linguistics. The same can be seen in television and film. What was unacceptable to show on public television even as recently as the 80's is common place today. Sex and violence permeate the entertainment industry, The more raw and gruesome the better. Television has evolved as people have become desensitized to certain things.

and that is a good thing? I for one do NOT wish to be desensitized to the terms mentioned in the OP! sure, you can turn it around and say, offensive language isn't really offensive, it's the people who let themselves be offended, so it's my own fault if I'm not numb enought to not feel anything when I hear/see them?!

when I saw the title I already knew that it was a serious discussion thread, if I hadn't I wouldn't have come in here, except maybe to report the thread
I feel the same as godeshus about losing respect, I have lost a little respect for some people on ninja because of the language they use in certain threads, which makes me sad because I like to think the best of people, but whatever the 'intent' is, what they say defines people, especially on the internet where we often have nothing but words!

I can't help but relating this to speech act theory because that's what I've been doing lately
according to Austin, utterances have three types of forces, the locutionary which is the actual utterance with its ostensible semantic meaning, the illocutionary force which is the intent, the intended meaning, and the perlocutionary force which is the effect on the hearer in its pragmatic context

I know that the illocutionary force plays an important role, what you've all been stressing as the intent, BUT one cannot dismiss the locutionary or the perlocutionary force of words! the speaker is also responsible for the effect his/her utterances have on other people
it annoys me to no end when people use 'intent' or 'context' as a kind of get out of jail free card because they "didn't mean it"
well if you don't mean what you say, don't say it (or only say it when you can be sure that everybody will understand what you mean)

also, attitudes, ideologies, stereotypes etc are encoded in words and if you use the words they are there, even if it's unconscious, even if you don't 'mean' it, unless you are actively trying to 'repossess' a term like leftie said, but I dare say that isn't the case 99.9% of the time

there was something else I wanted to say but I forgot >.<

[Molleyn]

I actually started thinking about what will happen if all curse words are diluted and lose their power - what will we say when we get angry?

It's a tangled knot, this question. Woman is the nigger of the world - yes, still, and language evolves, and context is everything, and intent, and the one-dimensional speech on the web, and the rights of the recipient, and everything else that goes with it...

I don't think it's ok to use really fowl language in any situation. On the internet, for example since we're here, you have to think about: Who is going to read this? Who do I want reading this? What, exactly, is it I'm trying to say (and what am I saying between the lines)? Will I get my point across better with these words, or worse? And it's not up to the author to decide who should be offended or not - how other people should feel.
I guess sometimes you want to offend. But choose well how and when.

+ I wanna hug jubri.